No no - just wanted to be sure we're not talking at cross purposes. Which we might be, a bit - let me juxtapose the original quote and your response:
Her:
"Some so-called “traditional” Muslims argue that ‘Western’ women are oppressed because they must derive their self-worth from the gaze of men. However, it is also true that within some Islamic communities a woman who does not cover is not afforded the same respect as one who does. The expectations are different but the result is the same; a woman’s worth is still determined by others, including men."
Your good self:
"Self-Worth - Man is a social animal. Our society would be quite different - and I think more unpleasant - were people completely unaffected by the opinions of others. Take me, for example. I am male. What I say in a given situation, including this one, how I dress and otherwise attend to my appearance, and many other aspects of my behaviour are chosen in part based on my understanding of the opinions of other people. Wearing a tie or not wearing a tie does not make me a slave of other people, or of men specifically, or of women. But my decision to wear one is rooted primarily in how I perceive or foresee the reactions of other people to my wearing or not wearing of a tie. Frankly, I would be disadvantaged at my work, in both social and status terms, if I did not wear one. Does this mean I am oppressed?"
Possibly where you and I are getting our wires crossed is that someone's "worth" comes from two sources: how we feel and think about themselves, and how we're treated by others. But these sources aren't separate. We internalise others' opinions about us; in turn, others change the way they treat us depending on how confident and authoritative we seem. Both factors operate in both Western and Muslim society, with women being treated differently depending on how they look (their face and figure, what they're wearing, whether they're wearing makeup, etc), and women internalising those cultural views and judging themselves on their appearance.
As we agree, men aren't exempt from this sort of pressure - it just doesn't affect men as intensely or as constantly, because men are doing the looking and the judging. (Women look at their own and each others' appearance through this "male gaze".)
It's true that I shouldn't consider the media the sole authority on cultural standards - what people do at home, at work, etc doesn't necessarily match what they're being told to do thousands of times each day. But man one can move a lot of magazines about dieting, makeup, hair, fashion, how to attract a boyfriend, etc. There are male equivalents, but to nowhere near the same extent.
It's always struck me as telling that both men's magazines and women's magazines almost always have a woman on the cover - and not just any woman, but one who closely matches the impossible standard being set for all women. No Western woman can entirely escape this constant input (even when she is in the habit of hurling abuse back at the images, hem hem). Being told that the most important thing about you is how you look, and coming to believe that, is very different to merely being sensibly sensitive to the opinions of others.
no subject
Her:
"Some so-called “traditional” Muslims argue that ‘Western’ women are oppressed because they must derive their self-worth from the gaze of men. However, it is also true that within some Islamic communities a woman who does not cover is not afforded the same respect as one who does. The expectations are different but the result is the same; a woman’s worth is still determined by others, including men."
Your good self:
"Self-Worth - Man is a social animal. Our society would be quite different - and I think more unpleasant - were people completely unaffected by the opinions of others. Take me, for example. I am male. What I say in a given situation, including this one, how I dress and otherwise attend to my appearance, and many other aspects of my behaviour are chosen in part based on my understanding of the opinions of other people. Wearing a tie or not wearing a tie does not make me a slave of other people, or of men specifically, or of women. But my decision to wear one is rooted primarily in how I perceive or foresee the reactions of other people to my wearing or not wearing of a tie. Frankly, I would be disadvantaged at my work, in both social and status terms, if I did not wear one. Does this mean I am oppressed?"
Possibly where you and I are getting our wires crossed is that someone's "worth" comes from two sources: how we feel and think about themselves, and how we're treated by others. But these sources aren't separate. We internalise others' opinions about us; in turn, others change the way they treat us depending on how confident and authoritative we seem. Both factors operate in both Western and Muslim society, with women being treated differently depending on how they look (their face and figure, what they're wearing, whether they're wearing makeup, etc), and women internalising those cultural views and judging themselves on their appearance.
As we agree, men aren't exempt from this sort of pressure - it just doesn't affect men as intensely or as constantly, because men are doing the looking and the judging. (Women look at their own and each others' appearance through this "male gaze".)
It's true that I shouldn't consider the media the sole authority on cultural standards - what people do at home, at work, etc doesn't necessarily match what they're being told to do thousands of times each day. But man one can move a lot of magazines about dieting, makeup, hair, fashion, how to attract a boyfriend, etc. There are male equivalents, but to nowhere near the same extent.
It's always struck me as telling that both men's magazines and women's magazines almost always have a woman on the cover - and not just any woman, but one who closely matches the impossible standard being set for all women. No Western woman can entirely escape this constant input (even when she is in the habit of hurling abuse back at the images, hem hem). Being told that the most important thing about you is how you look, and coming to believe that, is very different to merely being sensibly sensitive to the opinions of others.