dreamer_easy: (SCIENCE BIOLOGY)
dreamer_easy ([personal profile] dreamer_easy) wrote2008-12-05 09:03 am

Little Old Lady Who

I overheard part of a conversation at the con - forgive me, whoever was participating, as I've entirely forgotten! - affirming that although the Doctor could obviously be played by a Black actor, he could never be played by an actress, as this would make no scientific sense. The more I think about this simple remark, the deeper it gets.

Until quite recently, race was considered to be a real, natural category - something obvious and commonsense, decreed by biology or God. For decades, science's self-correcting mechanism has been chipping away at this illusion. We now understand that, biologically, there's no such thing as race - which means it's a cultural idea, something we invented and imposed. The evidence of our own eyes, which once seemed to confirm the illusion, now challenges it, as we encounter more and more people of mixed race. Sadly, the scientific evidence doesn't mean an end to racism, any more than scientific evidence means an end to Creationism; but we can hope to see this imaginary system of categories gradually blur away to nothing.

Physical sex, bodily gender, are another matter. Nature seems to confirm the obvious, solid categories of male and female with every birth: there are plenty of children of mixed race, but there are no children of mixed sex.

Except, obviously, that there are: millions of them. Transgender people, intersex people, people with any of a great many genetic syndromes which complicate our common sense, either/or picture of gender (and who may suffer very much as a result of our insistence on it). This powerfully challenges the idea that, while race is not a natural category, sex is, and it therefore wouldn't make sense for the Doctor to change sexes.

Despite this complexity, though, it's not usual for humans to change sex without medical assistance. (It's not impossible: there's a family in the Dominican Republic where some of the girls become boys at puberty.) Outside the human race, though, there are species across the animal kingdom who naturally change sex - to have as many offspring as possible, or to keep their social hierarchies organised. Some fish do it, some sea cucumbers do it, shrimp, sea snails, bristle worms, frogs... some species change sex just once, some can switch back and forth as necessary.

These natural sex changes are a matter of rebuilding the body, something which is difficult for adult human beings to do without help - but clearly trivial for Time Lords, who do precisely that at every regeneration. (Hmm, I wonder if this is why men and women on Gallifrey wear the same clothes?)

In fine: whatever objections one might have to casting an actress as the Doctor, science doesn't really lend them any support. Without making any judgements on anyone, I think those objections have more to do with our ideas about sex and gender than the concrete, fleshly reality of sex and gender: and I think those ideas are worth examining.
randomling: The Tenth Doctor (of Doctor Who) with one eyebrow raised, in black and white. The words "g33k pride" are displayed. (geek)

[personal profile] randomling 2008-12-04 10:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Posts like this are why I love reading your journal.

Just saying. :)

[identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:18 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh ta muchly!

[identity profile] browneyedgirl65.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:20 pm (UTC)(link)
Surviving death doesn't seem quite a natural thing either without medical assistance either ;-).

However, that does bring me to ask...when a Time Lord changes his body (on dying?), how is this happening? Do all Time Lords "die" and "come back" in an entirely different body as part of their own natural biological process, or is this something set up because of being with a Tardis (or are all Time Lords so equipped, but still equipped, eg some kind of medical procedure? Or have the Beeb kept this completely unanswered all this time?

If that's medically augmented, then there's absolutely no reason a Time Lord couldn't come back as anything else human, which includes women (to the shock of some, I know :-/ )

[identity profile] kelliem.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it would be great to see a cross-gender regeneration.

(Also-- I want a link to something about that family in the Dominican Republic!)

[identity profile] dameruth.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:25 pm (UTC)(link)
*applause* :D

[identity profile] the-ladylark.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting idea, and it's got my mind meandering back to lectures on sexual selection and evolutionary theory so I hope you don't mind if I waffle a bit, to take the brain cells out for a walk.

What is gender for? It seems to arise because you have one gender who goes for the long term 'eggs in one basket' (no pun intended) strategy, of having offspring that are definately yours that you put a lot of time and energy into (whether that's by having a large gamete, carrying to term or looking after them until they're 18) and the other who instead opts for a 'more is better' approach. Sperm wars and all that.

This then means that those who are intersex or transsexual are a rarity, something not quite happening as per usual, as opposed to an alternative strategy. This doesn't mean that it couldn't become a valid strategy I suppose, if it was succesful enough, if you assume there's a genetic component. Anyway, if we're talking about Time Lords in general as a species it would seem unlikely that this is a valid comparison for regenerating into a female from a male.

So I think we'd have to assume that if Time Lords can regenerate between sexes as a matter of course, this is something that happens either at a certain time in their life, or in response to certain stresses or influences. It would be interesting if all Time Lords started off female and had later regenerations male, or vice versa.. or maybe it's a matter of choice?

Anyway, I think what i'm trying to get at is that while what we think of as race would almost be a phenotypic variation for a Time Lord, as important or unimportant as hair or eye colour, gender actually has a meaning beyond that in terms of reproductive strategies and plumbing. So i'd be more surprised if the Doctor regenerated into a female than if he regenerated into someone with darker skin. Doesn't mean it's not plausible though.

Ooh. What might be interesting (though not gonna happen on TV) is if the Doctor regenerated into a being that looked like our human ideas of a female, while still being biologically speaking male. Or, alternatively, that we find out 'he' has been female all along. After all, we aint seen said plumbing!

[identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Haven't had as much luck Googling as I'd like, but check out this 1999 Annual Review of Sex Research article: Intersexuality and gender identity differentiation. I didn't realise the same syndrome had been found all over the world! The relevant Wikipedia article also has some details.

[identity profile] dameruth.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh. What might be interesting (though not gonna happen on TV) is if the Doctor regenerated into a being that looked like our human ideas of a female, while still being biologically speaking male. Or, alternatively, that we find out 'he' has been female all along. After all, we aint seen said plumbing!

I would *love* to watch the fandom explosion preciptated by either situation. Truly a popcorn-worthy event. XD

[identity profile] nyssa1968.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:45 pm (UTC)(link)
*applause*

And... Eldrad must live! (is an example that springs to mind...)

[identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)
As far as the TV show goes, unless I'm very much mistaken, we really haven't the foggiest how regeneration happens. (That doesn't stop us from making educated guesses, of course, but they could be Jossed at any moment.)

Perhaps the most extraordinary thing ever said about regeneration is the Ninth Doctor's remark to Rose at the end of Parting of the Ways: "I might have two heads. Or no head!" Whatever one's theory, that's a tough line to work into it. :)

[identity profile] thegameiam.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)
My understanding was that "sex" referred to biology, while "gender" referred to identity/social construct. So with that premise, transgender individuals don't go to the initial point, but intersexed individuals do.

I am aware of non-surgery gender reassignments, but not of any non-surgical sexual reassignments.

From a storytelling standpoint, I find the idea of someone reincarnating as someone of the opposite sex far less weird than the idea of somone reincarnating at all - once I've bought the latter, the former is along for the ride.

However, there are a couple of flawed analogies: "race" as a concept, is an attempt to apply a taxonomy to the normal human genetic variation. As far as I can tell, there is not a single case where it has proven to be a useful taxonomy (certainly it has less descriptive power than, say, ethnicity, or class does), but I may be wrong. Scientific evidence cannot "mean an end to Creationism" for the same reason that chocolate cannot mean an end to concrete - they are qualitatively different concepts with qualitatively different assumptions and referents. Expecting such is striving after the wind.

[identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 10:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I forgot to mention above the mind-blowing point that [livejournal.com profile] prof_pangea made, I think during the sex panel - that the blue suited Doctor, the one who goes off with Rose, is genderqueer. That is, he is part human, part Donna, and therefore part female. Cue lols at Rose discovering it's the part below the waist, hee tee; but that's not sci fi craziness, there are plenty of people like that in the real world: PC Handy's body would be roughly analogous to that of a transman who hasn't had phalloplasty. I can't believe I hadn't thought of it before - what an opportunity for fic!

[identity profile] antikythera.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 11:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I've held that opinion for a long time but have never bothered bouncing it off the thick skulls of fandom. Race and sex, to a Time Lord, are probably no less variable than height or hair colour. (And remember that we're talking about someone whose accent changes with his genetic makeup, too.)

My vote is for Judi Dench.

[identity profile] kelemvor.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 11:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Some of the books (novellisations and novels) delve a bit more into the subject. The ability appears to be inherent, and split between biological and mental properties. This is how Romana was able to shape her second body immediately after regenerating - her mental control is much stronger than the Doctor's, who tends never to know what he's going to get.

I could possibly go on for hours in this fashion, but I won't. :)

[identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 11:32 pm (UTC)(link)
Hurrah! The campaign for Tilda Swinton as the 12th Doctor begins today!

[identity profile] kelemvor.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 11:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm. I can see points both for and against gender/sex-swapping regenerations, which will probably drive me a little bit crazy.

For it is that one theory hypothesis behind sex is that it's to counter the effects of parasites. Given that Time Lords no longer reproduce sexually, that aspect of sex no longer applies, and so could be rather more fluid.

Against it is a little more tenuous, but "Lungbarrow" had the concepts of Housekeeper and Kithriarch, fulfilling roles roughly analogous to mother and father. This (to me, anyway) implies that a Time Lord's gender is fixed.

[identity profile] dameruth.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 11:52 pm (UTC)(link)
LOL! I've seen some pretty interesting 10.5 fics around -- including one where he turned out pysically male but *completely* gay, thanks to Donna's mental influence, thus adding some serious complications to his and Rose's supposed "happily-ever-after" relationship. Heck, *I* wrote some crack!fic where 10.5 and Donna end up fighting over Captain Jack, since now they *both* think he's teh hawt.

However, it's true that I *havent* seen anyone address a possible physical-gender crossover; most stories work with mental gender-identity switcheroos. (Which isn't to say that physical gender-switch fanfic doesn't exist, I just haven't seen it.) I think most folks base that on the way that Donna *doesn't* go into hysterics after getting an eyeful of naked!Doc in TSE . . . which implies that he looked pretty normal, externally. 'Course you could also argue that Donna didn't look that *closely* . . . ;)

[identity profile] mrteufel.livejournal.com 2008-12-04 11:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes. Oh, YES!!

Where do I sign?

[identity profile] captainlucy.livejournal.com 2008-12-05 12:06 am (UTC)(link)
I dunno. Call me a sexist old reactionary fart who enjoys maintaining the status quo or whatever, but I quite like the Doctor as a male character. I just don't see the Doctor as ever being a female (has there ever been reference to cross-genderism among Time Lords?)

I think part of the problem might be that if they cast someone like Tilda Swinton, Laura Fraser or Jessica Brooks, I would be looking at the Doctor and thinking "I find her really attractive, but she used to be a really old, crinkly bloke! Ewwwww!!!" (Sorry, awesome though all the Doctors have been, just ... just ... ewwwww!)
;)


Oh, also, humans undergo a sex change quite naturally - well, about 50% of us do, anyway. All human foetuses start out female, but after 6-7 weeks those with the Y-chromosome undergo physiological changes in response to increased testosterone levels to become male. So, yet more "Science hears your arguments, and laughs at them" to throw at whoever made the original comment. :)
Edited 2008-12-05 00:12 (UTC)
ext_23564: lithograph black & white self-portrait, drawn from mirror image (kwaiiii dancy kitties)

[identity profile] kalibex.livejournal.com 2008-12-05 12:08 am (UTC)(link)

AMEN

[identity profile] strangedave.livejournal.com 2008-12-05 12:23 am (UTC)(link)
he could never be played by an actress, as this would make no scientific sense

Which can be cheerfully restated as 'he could never be played by an actress, as this would make the show into science fiction'. :-)
ext_3536: A close up of a green dragon's head, gentle looking with slight wisps of smoke from its nostrils. (Default)

[identity profile] leecetheartist.livejournal.com 2008-12-05 12:36 am (UTC)(link)
Um, didn't anybody *like* Joanna Lumley as the Doctor in Curse Fatal Death? I thought she was very good!
ext_3536: A close up of a green dragon's head, gentle looking with slight wisps of smoke from its nostrils. (Default)

[identity profile] leecetheartist.livejournal.com 2008-12-05 12:37 am (UTC)(link)
I mean "Doctor Who and the Curse of Fatal Death", sorry, dropping little words today, it seems.

[identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com 2008-12-05 12:47 am (UTC)(link)
In one of the panels, someone in the audience cried, "LOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMSSSS!" and broke me up. :)
ext_3536: A close up of a green dragon's head, gentle looking with slight wisps of smoke from its nostrils. (Default)

[identity profile] leecetheartist.livejournal.com 2008-12-05 12:48 am (UTC)(link)
Hah, and interestingly:

"The script was written before the other actors to play the Doctor (Richard E. Grant, Jim Broadbent, Hugh Grant and Joanna Lumley) were asked to appear, and Sue was delighted when they all agreed: "They were all lovely, and everyone had a great time."

All the actors playing the Doctor had been named as possible candidates to play the role at some time or other, and this wasn't even the first time that Jim Broadbent had appeared as the Doctor: he also played the Time Lord in a Victoria Wood sketch, and has graced the cover of Doctor Who Magazine."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/news/cult/news/drwho/2004/08/10/13656.shtml

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