Fanfic

May. 11th, 2007 11:31 am
dreamer_easy: (tiger)
[personal profile] dreamer_easy
I haven't even read [livejournal.com profile] angriest's posting Why Fanfic Makes Us Writers yet, because I'm still catching up on the postings which inspired it, as well as the responses.

Just one which caught my eye comes from [livejournal.com profile] hoshikaze, who has quit fanfic for original work, and who comments: "You have that much more to plan out with original fiction." I've spent a decade ruefully learning this lesson.

But it's not the worldbuilding. When you write a Doctor Who novel, even with the series' inbuilt flexibility and the publishers' willingness to experiment, you already have a compelling mental picture of the plot and the characters' choices. You know instinctively how it's going to go. I wasted a lot of time - years, really - doing intricate worldbuilding, when what I needed to know was how to plot.

More generally: most fanfic is unreadable rubbish, but this is also true of most of the slushpile. Hence, derivativeness is not the problem. (IMHO, the problem is navel-gazing, whether on the part of fanfic communities or wannabe professionals.)

Date: 2007-05-11 01:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashamel.livejournal.com
Yeah, plotting is very tricky. I really haven't balanced the need to create a plot vs the research and 'worldbuilding' needed to have that plot make sense.

Date: 2007-05-11 02:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
In my current SF effort, I'm just throwing in the worldbuilding as I go. It'd be different if I needed to tell the history of a galactic empire or something, but I really only need a few supporting details.

Date: 2007-05-11 02:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashamel.livejournal.com
I think that's the way to go -- if I can get over the initial hurdle to get that momentum going.

Date: 2007-05-11 02:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
I discovered that sex scenes, er, lubricate the story.

Date: 2007-05-11 07:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] strangedave.livejournal.com
For a somewhat heretical view of the value of worldbuilding in SF, there is M. John Harrison (http://uzwi.wordpress.com/2007/01/27/very-afraid/)

Date: 2007-05-12 11:16 am (UTC)

Date: 2007-05-11 02:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mad-march-hare.livejournal.com
When you say "navel-gazing," does that mean that the writer is paying more attention to theme rather than plot? Or more attention to characters? Or is it setting? Is plot the most important point, or a solid grasp on characterization?

Argh, my brain hurts.

Date: 2007-05-11 02:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
Nah, I mean the thing where fanficcers only read fanfic and/or only seek feedback from other ficcers. (I reckon this is a danger for scribblers in any genre.)

Date: 2007-05-11 02:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com
I think there's a different "navel-gazing" risk in fanfic, and that's taking a lot of care to tie up continuity problems from the source IP without caring enough about telling an engaging story with interesting characters. Or simply having too much fun pitting Osirians vs Fenric vs Animus to give a toss about them.

Date: 2007-05-11 03:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rj-anderson.livejournal.com
I think that's primarily a male fanfic author's problem, though. I know relatively few female fanficcers who would get caught up resolving inconsistencies in Dalek chronology and forget to create interesting characters. They're more apt to get caught up having everybody fall in love and/or have copious amounts of sex and forget to have a plot. It's still navel-gazing, but it's emotional/sensual navel-gazing instead.

I do have to give the early Harry Potter fanfic authors credit in this regard. Back in the early days, many of them were writing ambitious multichapter (sometimes book-length) stories -- sure they were often heavily romantic, but they did have real, sometimes quite complicated and action-packed, plots. It wasn't until later that the fluff and smut pieces really took over. The same was true of The X-Files and a decent percentage of Doctor Who fic prior to the new series.

Date: 2007-05-11 03:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com
That's a very interesting observation, that I actually hadn't considered before. Which isn't to say there aren't women writing continuity-heavy fanwank, or men writing slash or romance, but there is definitely a trend, isn't there?

Date: 2007-05-11 03:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rj-anderson.livejournal.com
And even among the women who write plotty multichapter stories with lashings of science and technical explanations of how the story fits into canon, those feeeeeelings (wo, oh, oh, feelings) always seem to creep in along the way, even if explicit sex or even overt romance doesn't.

Date: 2007-05-11 03:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com
In Doctor Who fanfic (and some of the commercial stuff as well), I've always loved how the Doctor's 1000 years old, has committed genocide on multiple occasions, has seen quite literally *billions* of people die over the centuries, yet he's always really, *really* sad about how Adric died.

Date: 2007-05-11 03:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rj-anderson.livejournal.com
*hoots*

It's TRUE! I'm even guilty as charged!

*is so amused now*

Date: 2007-05-11 05:06 am (UTC)

Date: 2007-05-11 04:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
"Navel-gazing": a euphemism for, you know, stuff.

Date: 2007-05-11 02:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rj-anderson.livejournal.com
I'm glad you linked to [livejournal.com profile] angriest's post, because it's kind of awesome and says much of what I was thinking of saying in the essay on fanfic I've been thinking about but haven't had time to write. Also, he gives the NA's due credit for being the most awesome media tie-in novels ever, which of course they totally were. Fans of other shows can dream of reading tie-in novels that ambitious, that surprising, but it's most unlikely that they ever will. I would feel sorry for them but I am too busy gloating. :)

Anyway, the points about fanfic I was going to make if I wrote my essay was that there are, at least potentially, some fabulous things about fanfic and fandom which are excellent training for writing original fiction -- but there are also things which are very bad for the original fiction writer and tend to develop flabby creative muscles.

The fact that most fandoms frown on original characters, for instance, is a very bad thing for the would-be published author. Without practice in writing your own original characters -- original main characters whom the reader has to care about, or at least be intrigued by, in order to appreciate the story -- it can prove very, very difficult to make the jump from fanfic to successful published fiction. And you just can't get that writing fanfic about other people's characters whom your audience already knows and likes. The skill set required to accurately capture and reproduce an existing character's personality, speech, and so on is a different one from the skill set required to construct a successful new character from scratch.

And then there's the worldbuilding, which doesn't have to be a problem if you get plenty of practice taking fanfic characters into exciting new scenarios we've never seen them in before, but is going to cause you real consternation if you're accustomed to setting your stories on the Enterprise or Princeton-Plainsboro Teaching Hospital or Hogwarts.

The problems with fanfic writers learning to plot, however, generally come from authors who are used to writing het/slash/smut pieces, vignettes and drabbles, and other forms which tend to be light on plot. I don't think multichapter genfic writers are apt to have quite the same degree of that problem, and I'm actually rather surprised given the complexity of your past novels to hear that you feel plotting is an issue. Maybe you could explain that part a little more?

I'd written two original novels before I started posting fanfic to the net. Maybe that helped me evade the plot trap. My weakness (until recently, anyway) tended to be more in the area of theme, which I don't think I can blame fanfic for. Rather, I blame a childhood reading awful "Christian" novels in which the reader was beaten over the head with a moral that effectively ruined the story as Story (if there was ever a Story there to begin with). In an effort to avoid that kind of glib preachiness I actually leaned right over the other direction and left my poor editor asking, "It's got lots of stuff happening, but what is the book really ABOUT?"

Wow, that was long and rambly. My apologies. *skulks off*

Date: 2007-05-11 03:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com
Gracias!

The New Adventures were revolutionary in terms of what they did to Doctor Who fandom, and someone really should write the definitive non-fiction book about them. I keep wanting to, but keep thinking someone over in the UK with better access to the authors should do it.

The main thing they did I think was democratise fandom. Suddenly we could write the stories, and we could decide what the Doctor was like, and who his companions were. I think one of the big problems that's making DW fandom so fractured and argumentative at the moment - over and above the new series/old series issues that affected Star Trek fandom back in the late 80s - is that a fandom that for a few years actually had power over its object of interest has suddenly become by-and-large powerless again. And that's quite a hit to take and keep running with.

Date: 2007-05-11 03:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rj-anderson.livejournal.com
Yes, exactly -- very well said. Back when it looked as though DW was never coming back to television, there was that sense of democracy. Which was terrific for fanfic authors, to be sure -- but it's one of the things we've lost now that the show's come back into its own. As a (mostly) genfic author, I really have no desire to write fic for the new series, although as a viewer I am eating it up with a spoon.

Date: 2007-05-11 03:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com
I've actually been toying around since this whole string of fanfic posts started, and the 10th Doctor's personality is really refreshing to play with.

It'd be lovely if the BBC at least started up a range of PDAs again with an open submissions policy, but I doubt it'll ever happen now that the franchise has exploded into a multi-million pound cash cow.

Date: 2007-05-11 04:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jblum.livejournal.com
I actually found that this presumption of "democracy" was more a case of fandom's ego. "We" still didn't run the series; the editors did -- the power was in the hands of the few dozen authors who got publishable book proposals (and later audio scripts) together, not the thousands who were reading. But the thousands *thought* they were running the show.

Those of us more on the inside knew that no way was it a democracy; it was a benevolent dictatorship, where the grand poobah listened to his cabinet but always retained the power to overrule them.

This doesn't undo your point about it being a shock to fandom's system, though... fandom didn't have actual control, but they had a _relevance_ which they now conspicuously lack.

Date: 2007-05-11 05:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com
I suppose what I mean is that there was a clear and comparatively direct way to move from enthused fan to professional writer dictating the course (however slightly) of the franchise. You could actually see the path in front of you.

Date: 2007-05-11 05:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
Any boy could become president!

Date: 2007-05-11 01:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gdwessel.livejournal.com
"WE OWE YOU NOTHING
YOU HAVE NO CONTROL"

-- "Merchandise," Fugazi

Date: 2007-05-11 07:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leoniedelt.livejournal.com
I've already written a novelette for Nanowrimo and had no trouble plotting that out in my head for 3.5 weeks, so whilst i write fanwank heavy fic, (minus smut or slash, and I am female!) to Teaspoon, i think i'm a plotter, not a smutter, and my strengths lie in plotting and in original characters, not in fluff, and sadly, not in characterisation of already created characters (ie sometimes my Doctor isnt suitably Doctory)...

I liked my original characters in my nano novel MORE than the companions (Tegan and Turlough) I'd written; they were easier to work with, more adaptable, and I didnt have to keep them in character or stick to canon - i could create it as I went along, which actually worked better for me!

I'd love to make the jump to original novel. I really would. Give me time, space, let me get the Shelf Life thing over with, let me get an original idea, and I will.

Date: 2007-05-11 09:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
I'm actually rather surprised given the complexity of your past novels to hear that you feel plotting is an issue

I managed to get away with some very seat-of-the-pants flying in the NAs - one book which visibly suffers is Return of the Living Dad, where the Evil Schemeā„¢ is revealed out of nowhere and then almost immediately abandoned by its perpetrator. Without Bex's awesome editing I'd have been sunk many a time.

When I started trying to write original fic, though - and this is 1995 I'm talking about! - I encountered a different but related problem: I had no idea how to plot. I knew in my gut what happened in a Doctor Who story, but lift me out of that water and my gills collapsed. Or something.

Date: 2007-05-11 03:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] strangedave.livejournal.com
Oddly enough, as a 20 year veteran gamemaster (with a tendency to overplot), the plotting is the bit that doesn't bother me at all. Dialogue, on the other hand, scares me. I've been talking about this with [livejournal.com profile] angriest quite a bit over the years.

Date: 2007-05-11 04:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ashamel.livejournal.com
In the context of RPGs, dialogue is scarier than plot, at least for me. I like taking published adventures and messing with them so they make sense, and all the characters do interesting things. I think I'm pretty good at it too -- at least in a big-picture way. Conveying all the details of that usually comes down to dialogue, which I find harder.

This is probably analogous to Kate's comments about fanfic vs original stuff (with my inability to act thrown in).

Date: 2007-05-11 04:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com
One day... one day your plots and my dialogue will take over the world!! Bwahahahahaa!!

Date: 2007-05-11 05:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lordshiva.livejournal.com
Apparently even my original fiction is fanfiction. Perhaps I should embrace this as my calling and stop worrying that writing fanfic is just "screwing around" when I should be doing OMG REAL WRITING NOW! Sadly, this conficted state means that I don't write anything but commentary on livejournal posts about fanfiction.

Date: 2007-05-11 06:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
The difference between my fanfic and my "professional fan fiction", ha ha, is that the latter has been subject to professional editing. From peoples' remarks around the place, they think this has something to do with checking the spelling, and not, for example, massive changes to the plot or anything.

Date: 2007-05-11 06:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lordshiva.livejournal.com
From peoples' remarks around the place, they think this has something to do with checking the spelling, and not, for example, massive changes to the plot or anything.

Leave people their illusions:-)

Date: 2007-05-11 06:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
Yah - less competition. >:-)

Date: 2007-05-11 07:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pbristow.livejournal.com
Ooh! Lovely icon. Reminds me of this: http://www.nyrond.co.uk/axylides/toad.htm

Date: 2007-05-11 06:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com
In fanfic it is easy to get away with having no plot whatsoever. Which in a way pleases me, because I don't want to read plotty fanfic so much. (I claim this is cos it's the one thing our source-texts tend to give us in abundance, contrasting with the lack of explicit gay sex.)

I have to go write plotless gay pron. Lulz!

Date: 2007-05-11 07:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kateorman.livejournal.com
Profic has editing, but fanfic has TOTAL FREEDOM. Including format.

Date: 2007-05-11 07:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com
And no one tells us not to use awful euphemisms :(

Date: 2007-05-11 01:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gdwessel.livejournal.com
Strangely I think it's sort of the opposite in comics -- I'm creating original works in order to GET NOTICED by the likes of Marvel, DC, etc., in order to write pre-created properties.

Comics = reverse fanfic?

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