Race and racism anon meme thing

[dreamer_easy]

International Blog Against Racism Week begins tomorrow, 6 August. Before the week officially starts, I'd like to try something a bit dodgy.

For the next twenty-four hours, you can leave an anonymous message here with any questions you have about race or racism. IP logging is off and there are no LJ Toys or other IP-capturing stuff to worry about.

I know many people are afraid to say or ask things about these subjects, for fear of looking stupid or causing offence. I'll delete anything that's obviously just supposed to be abusive, and anything that uses insulting words, but otherwise, anything goes. POC, please be warned: that means there may be annoying, frustrating, or offensive material - you may prefer not to read the comments left here.

I can't guarantee answers to questions that are posted, but I will try to respond if I can. I won't judge or lecture anyone for honest curiosity or confusion. (Keep in mind I'm just a well-meaning White middle-class liberal, and no expert on racial issues.)

The twenty-four hours is up, folks! You can still post anonymously, but IP logging is back on. Thanks for your comments!

Comments

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

In my neck of the woods (i.e. a part of the country where there are tremendously affluent marjority-black neighborhoods), poverty is less a function of what race you are than:

1) were your parents poor?
2) did you have two parents?
3) did you finish high school / take some college?

Now, there are statistical differences between the various demographic groups, but you'll find that poverty tracks those far more than it tracks skin color.

Race is an outmoded concept, which has outlived its shelf-life (it never had any usefulness to outlive) - let's just worry about poverty reduction: if the poor people happen to have dark skin, we'll help them. If they happen to have light skin, we'll help them. What does skin color matter?

[jvowles.livejournal.com]

People who choose to define themselves by their race, who have selected just ONE facet of who they are as the only part that matters, seem to presume that everyone else does too.

We don't.

The goal isn't to ignore the differences of skin color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Those differences exist, and they DO matter -- but to some people, they're the ONLY thing that matters.

If you don't want skin color to matter to you, that's fine. If someone else does decide it's the most important thing, there's not much you can do to shake them of that stupid point of view -- and they're going to interpret EVERYTHING you say or do in whatever way suits their extremist viewpoint.

You can't reason extremists out of their viewpoint, because it's not grounded in reason. And people who see everything in terms of race -- either because they fear what's different, or because they've decided to make their race the most important thing in their identity -- are extremists.

I think however, the distinction is this: The idea is to NOT let obvious physical (but essentially cosmetic) differences get in the way of treating individuals fairly based on who THEY are and how THEY choose to act.

If someone chooses to get their feathers ruffled by your honest attempts to deal with them in a fair and unbiased manner, fuck 'em.

[jvowles.livejournal.com]

Actually, we've pretty much done the same thing with our indigenous people in this country.

And the less said about DC racial politics, the better. Any group of idiots that KEEPS ELECTING MARION BARRY....

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Racism: a Very Short Introduction cites US studies from the sixties, the nineties, and most recently Whitewashing Race (Brown et al, 2003), all of which demonstrate that "... institutional racism continues to blight black lives. Inadequate housing, the product of years discrimination and 'white flight', and poorly resourced schools lead to low educational achievement, lower admissions to colleges, and poor employment prospects."

I'd be very interested to see some of the statistics you mention.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Coincidentally, I just stumbled across an Australian equivalent - the lack of educational opportunities for Indigenous Australians (the uni is running a program to promote science to students.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

I personally haven't encountered any of these extremists who "see everything in terms of race", so I can't comment on that, but I'm reassured by Racism: a Very Short Introduction, which argues that racists are not necessarily irrational or extremist, and in fact can be argued round. The author gives a remarkable example of a British National Party candidate who campaigned on the basis that Asian people in her area were getting more than their share of local resources, was elected, and resigned when she found out the resources had actually been fairly allocated.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

I've scribbled a couple of things over at cluelessxh1x0r about this - my links, let me show you them:

http://cluelessch1x0r.livejournal.com/7021.html

http://cluelessch1x0r.livejournal.com/1020.html

[(Anonymous)]

Why are people so bothered about depiction of race in Doctor Who when the relaunch series featured an inter-racial snog within the first two minutes? Such snogs being still surprisingly rare in mainstream media, after all.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you telling me that you'd rather I include race in my decisionmaking process? Examples of places where I don't consider it now include whom to hire or promote, whether to be concerned when seeing two people walking down the street toward me, or who should receive honors I distribute at my synagogue. Am I wrong for not using race as a factor?

No, I'm answering the question you originally asked, which was not "Should I hire and fire based on race?" but instead, "Why should anyone care *at all* about race?"

Hypothetical situation: someone comes up to me and tells me about some unpleasant patterns of behavior he's been experiencing-- people cross the street to avoid him, taxis don't stop for him, and he's constantly followed around by security guards in stores. I am puzzled by this, since it's never happened to *me*-- certainly not as a constant, regular pattern. I ask a few of my friends about this and they say it's never happened to them, either. I therefore conclude that the person who's describing his anomalous experiences must be (1) a liar (2) paranoid (3) someone who enjoys whining and complaining or (4) perhaps somehow deserving of the treatment he's receiving.

Now, that is a really obvious, stupid analogy, and a person would have to be an idiot not to think to themselves, "Wait, my friend with the problem is a black man, and I'm a white woman, and hey! So are my friends that I happened to ask about this situation. Maybe race (and gender) have something to do with our different perspectives? Could that be true? My goodness! Perhaps it could!"

But I unfortunately see exactly this lack of thought, in slightly subtler forms, play out *all the time*, both on the internet and in real life-- because that's what happens when people "don't care about race" and "never take race into account."

"Well, you're just (lying) (paranoid) (too sensitive) (you did it to yourself)."

There is no possible way for a person like me to understand that other people's experiences can be *legitimately* and significantly different than mine, because of their race, unless I acknowledge that race and racism in modern society are forces that still drastically affect people's lives. When you ask "why should I care," I wonder: why *should* I care about something that is desperately wrong with the country I live in? Why should I care about something that affects so many people that I love? How can I *not* care?

How can I even begin to address racism if I'm trying to pretend racism is over? How can I be more informed about race if I don't care enough to listen when people talk about it? How can I listen if my starting position is "Oh, yeah? Well, why should I care? Why should anyone care?"

If I don't care about race, will I even be able to percieve it as a factor that affects modern-day inequalities and injustices? If I can't even percieve it, how can I possibly do anything about it? If I'm ignorant of the mistakes made in the past, and the mistakes still currently being made, how can I avoid repeating them?

Why should you care? Because if you don't care-- if you don't even care one tiny, little bit-- then you're not listening, you're not learning, and you're not helping.

That's what I meant when I said it's the least a decent person can do. Care enough to listen. Care enough to be informed. Seriously, it's the least you can do.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

This eloquent, gentle comment is made of win.

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

Certainly the settlers' treatment of the native population was pretty appalling - but can you point to issues as bad as Kate mentioned which are still ongoing today? In general, the tribes have their own sovereignty, and the problems they've got are more correlated to multi-generational poverty rather than institutionalized racism.

There are a few politicians in DC who still engage in racial identity politics. Councilman Barry is a good example of one. However, any examination of the Washington Post's coverage of DC politics would show them giving inordinate time to people who want to engage in racial politics.

THAT is something we need to stamp out.

[the-cockfighter.livejournal.com]

Are all these issues based on skin colour or does ethnicity or culture come into play? Is the prejudice I experience, because I am of Serbian origin, of any relevance to this discussion?

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

can you point to issues as bad as Kate mentioned

Possibly not; IIRC, Australia holds the world record for crappy treatment of our Indigenous population. Oh yes, here it is: Australia ranked bottom of wealthy nations on Indigenous health. Indigenous Australians have three times the infant mortality rate of other Australians. (OTOH, Native Americans have almost twice the infant mortality rate of White Americans.)

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Fuck yeah. Tell us something about that.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

I had a poke around and found this:

"Native Americans have a lower life expectancy than any other racial/ethnic group and higher rates of many diseases, including diabetes, tuberculosis, and alcoholism. Yet, health facilities are frequently inaccessible and medically obsolete, and preventive care and speciality services are not readily available..... The federal government’s failure to avail Native Americans of services and programs available to other Americans violates their civil rights."
- U.S. Commission on Civil Rights report, quoted here

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

First, let me say that I appreciate the sincere response: I really am interested in perspectives other than mine.

The above hypothetical sounded good, but it fails on the following line:

There is no possible way for a person like me to understand that other people's experiences can be *legitimately* and significantly different than mine, because of their race, unless I acknowledge that race and racism in modern society are forces that still drastically affect people's lives.

I'll go further than that: we're each inside our own heads, and understanding someone else's point of view from their perspective is impossible. Yep - people have different experiences than I do. No, I'm not surprised by that - I am curious to know about it, but I'm unsurprised that experiences are different.

Subjective experiences are exactly that: subjective. If I am approaching two men on a sidewalk, and I cross the street and go to the other side, is it because:

1) I'm racist - their skin was a different color than what I'm used to seeing in this neighborhood.

2) the other side of the street has more shade.

3) I'm trying to keep my dog away from the dog that I see a block further down.

4) something else entirely

The right answer here is: "there isn't enough information to judge internal mental state - only actions can be judged."

If a friend comes to me, and tells me how s/he was mistreated in a given situation, I'll sympathize - but what exactly should I DO? Provide a shoulder to cry on? sure. Help him/her compose a nasty letter to a proprietor or an establishment? sure.

But what did the skin color matter in any of the above? Someone being jerky is someone being jerky - jerks offend and hurt lots of people around them, and decent people try to help clean up the mess. I like to think of myself as a decent person - just someone who doesn't give a whole lot of thought to skin color (any more than I do to clothing choices - in fact, I notice clothing choices a lot more: people wear some pretty unflattering stuff around here...)

So if I continue to not care about skin color, are you saying that I'm going to be insufficiently sympathetic to someone who is victimized by some other racist, or that I myself would commit acts of racism against someone else?

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

hear hear. I spent a lot of words trying to say this (but not as well as you did).

[the-cockfighter.livejournal.com]

Having a surname like Prekodravac, people do tend to ask the origin of that name and its been difficult especially during the 90s to say that its Serbian. People, sadly more often than not, don't know how to respond to that... I describe it as a certain look on their face as if I'm about to commit genocide on them :-)

And over the years, I've said half Serbian and half Slovenian, or that I call myself Camperdownian (born King George V in Camperdown). But I feel sometimes its me apologising. It gets more interesting when I talk about the village were my father is from, to say that its a Serbian town in Croatia (Trpinja)... gets a look of wierdness too. As nationalistic people go, the Serbs must be perceived to be in the top 5?

Which I think is funny in your entry on redheads, that one can sense discrimination because this ethnicity is perceived as genocidal people wanting to tear down Europe. The Serbs were lined up for cleansing in WWII too... I imagine Germans experience that sort of discrimination.

In Doctor Who we had representation through Tegan.. and i guess the odd character in a Dave Stone novel :-), but with Tegan there was the double cringe... because that hard J in Jovanka was as painful as her accent. Though more recently the Serbs got a mention in Family of Blood... it took me by surprise, I don't know how I feel about that.

Trpinja in Google maps: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Trpinja&sll=45.604431,18.671265&sspn=0.814729,1.675415&ie=UTF8&ll=45.469762,18.901978&spn=0.816683,1.675415&z=9&iwloc=addr&om=1

[brownbetty]

No, the anonymous was talking about someone who observes a pattern of being treated in a particular way, you're talking about one instance.

So, pretend I'm a black man. If I had come to you and told you that some guy had crossed to other side of the street on seeing me, I'm pretty sure you'd say, "so?" I mean, it's not the significant, and we can't know the meaning. But if I tell you that everywhere I go, people cross to the other side of the street, even though each instance examined individually could have an innocuous explanation, in the aggregate, this sort of thing is statistically ludicrous and must be a trend.

And if we're refusing to look at race, we're never going to see that.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

I'm always embarrassed that I know so few countries as anything besides grim headlines. At least if I encounter an American I can ask what state they're from or something. (Of course, then they feel that they have to apologise for George Bush.) South African emigres must have gone through the same thing (probably still do, for that matter.

Should the J in Jovanka be a Y, or the "Zhh" sound as in French?

*has a look at Google's satellite view of Trpinja* It's one of those quilts of farms you see, flying over the countryside!

[the-cockfighter.livejournal.com]

It should be a Y as the way Jana Wendt has taught us, but thinking on it, having the hard J for Jovanka, tells you what kind of Australia she came from.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

Prior to 9/11, the largest successful terrorist act against the USA was committed by a white Christian. Religious terrorism is committed by radical fanatics, not necessarily by those of a single religion. But I do see your point about the odds of a terrorist act in the developed world being committed by a radicalised Moslem in a contemporary sense.

It annoyed me because even if the odds are greater, another human being that I do not know anything whatsoever about does not deserve my fear or bigotry. Every individual deserves the benefit of the doubt. I'd like to be the person who doesn't fear or feel negative towards anybody, and the culture of fear that's been developed around me makes it harder for me to do that.

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

Ok, and if you've shown me the trend, besides me saying "gee, that sucks, sorry you're experiencing that, and I hope it ends soon" what else should I do?

Person X really can't do a whole lot to ensure that person Y doesn't do something crummy to person Z when person X isn't around, right?

I would think that given that there's not a whole lot which an uninvolved person can do in that case, making sure that one isn't the one causing the problem would be good - and that is best done by not being overly concerned with race as a concept, right?

[brownbetty]

So, because it might highlight unpleasant inequalities in the world, willfull blindness is the best option?

As a personal philosophy, I have no doubt it works for you.

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

Now wait a second here - asking exactly what you suggest I (as a third party who isn't committing any of the racially insensitive acts) do to reduce the harm which those people who do commit racially insensitive acts does is a completely reasonable question.

For asking a question, I get called blind? Rather, I suggest that the Emperor has no clothes, and that you don't have a better answer than being rude and insulting.