Race and racism anon meme thing

[dreamer_easy]

International Blog Against Racism Week begins tomorrow, 6 August. Before the week officially starts, I'd like to try something a bit dodgy.

For the next twenty-four hours, you can leave an anonymous message here with any questions you have about race or racism. IP logging is off and there are no LJ Toys or other IP-capturing stuff to worry about.

I know many people are afraid to say or ask things about these subjects, for fear of looking stupid or causing offence. I'll delete anything that's obviously just supposed to be abusive, and anything that uses insulting words, but otherwise, anything goes. POC, please be warned: that means there may be annoying, frustrating, or offensive material - you may prefer not to read the comments left here.

I can't guarantee answers to questions that are posted, but I will try to respond if I can. I won't judge or lecture anyone for honest curiosity or confusion. (Keep in mind I'm just a well-meaning White middle-class liberal, and no expert on racial issues.)

The twenty-four hours is up, folks! You can still post anonymously, but IP logging is back on. Thanks for your comments!

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

POC, please be warned: that means there may be annoying, frustrating, or offensive material - you'll probably prefer not to read comments left here.

To be blunt: the second half of this sentence comes across as incredibly condescending, in a paternalistic, "I know what's best for you, PoC" sort of way. A better phrasing might be, "POC, please be warned: that means there may be annoying, frustrating, or offensive material - please take this under consideration and make your own decision as to whether or not you would prefer to read the comments left here."

To be even blunter: I think setting yourself up as some sort of information resource about race and racism is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. However, I encourage you to point people to sources where they can do further reading and research, such as the links being collected on the ibarw community.

[outsdr.livejournal.com]

Racism will exist within humanity until intelligent extra-terrestrials are contacted. Agree; disagree; or do I need to elaborate further?

(And yes, I'm being serious)

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Edited - thanks.

[(Anonymous)]

I'd be interested to hear what FoC thought of the recent South Park story "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson". Personally I thought it was one of their finest ever satires. I am a white boy.

[(Anonymous)]

Do people reckon it's normal for a white person who grew up in an almost exclusively white area, and who has learned non-racist opinions and beliefs (in which they quite sincerely believe) only as an adult, to still be a bit scared of black people?

It's not something I can control, but I know it's there, and it troubles me.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

I found myself momentarily terrified of the Middle-Eastern Islamic couple who sat on a bus next to me last year in London, and hated myself for it. Then I hated the government and media who put that sort of fear in me.

Is being anonymous on this thread compulsory? I can't be bothered being anonymous.

[drhoz.livejournal.com]

same here :(

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

No, of course it's not compulsory. :-)

[antikythera.livejournal.com]

I suspect that it goes in all directions... if you grow up in a community consisting exclusively of X, and you're a member of X, you may very well subconsciously inherit some unfair assumptions/beliefs about other groups.

I suspect that it's worse when X is a majority group, but X could also be an isolated minority and the same thing would probably happen.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you not confusing racism (a real problem, where people treat others differently, up to and including attacking them, for perceived differences in somethign that for the sake of argument we can call 'race') with an outdated quasi-Marxist view that sees everything as 'power struggles'?

Does this not firstly obscure the real problem as people focus on these 'power struggles' and 'false consciousnesses' instead of dealing with actual racist acts and people, and secondly lead to bad results such as identity politics and other 'reactions' that simply serve to encourage those who see others as 'different' based on whatever their idea of 'race' happens to be?

That is, does you explicitly dividing your readership up onto 'POCs' and 'non-POCs' not play into the racists' hands by legitimising the idea of some fundamental, essential difference between the 'POC' and the 'non-POC', when the ideal would be for the C-ness of each person to be irrelevant, and them to be treated exactly the same regardless of perceived 'racial' characteristics?

That is -- by you drawing the distinction, you are accepting that a black person is not the same as a white person, in ways that go beyond phenotype. Is this not exactly the idea that racists use and that we should be combatting, not endorsing implicitly or explicitly?

Should we not instead be trying to treat everybody the same?

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

Why exactly should anyone who doesn't sell skin-care products give a hoot about someone else's skin color?

[(Anonymous)]

How about when one feels unease around someone of color, but that unease seems at least somewhat related to class differences as well?

[(Anonymous)]

Is it strange for a white person whose best childhood friends where from many different countries to be slightly annoyed by other white people who fuzz about the absense of black/asian characters in tv series or think it's special that one is present? This is not meant in a 'don't want these people' kind of way, but rather in a slightly blind 'what's the difference, we're all people' kind of way. After all, feminism wasn't started by men either. Off to think about this for a while.

[lordshiva.livejournal.com]

This is definitely a dodgy proposition, Kate. I don't see how it can help, and the disclaimer to POC is like a giant red flag - or so it seems to me. What questions are you qualified to answer in this regard?

Because here's what's likely to be said in some version or other,(the same thing said to women who question sexism,) "I don't understand why you can't just get over it. You can vote and own property and go to school now. Stop harshing my oblivious mellow as a member of the privileged class/gender."

[(Anonymous)]

.... It still comes off as condescending. Why emphasize that they "probably" or "may" not want to read? Why don't you seem to think PoC can draw their own conclusions about the type of question likely to be in your comments, and make their own decisions about whether to dive in or not?

signed,
The same person.

[(Anonymous)]

Until the existing inequalities in society and culture are addressed, for a white person to say "I don't care about race" is the equivalent of saying "I don't care about racism." You cannot fight racism without acknowledging that in many nations around the world, a person's skin color has a significant affect on how they are treated by others, every day of their entire life. Not "giving a hoot" about that is not laudable, it is merely blind.

These links may also be helpful in answering your question.

http://tep.uoregon.edu/workshops/teachdiversity/idontseecolor/idontseecolor.pdf

http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=395

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

Yipes - the first is a syllabus of "how to view everything through a racial lens" and the second includes the assertion (challenged and not supported) that colorblindness works great in theory but fails in practice.

Neither of these answered my question: "why should person X care about person Y's skin color?"

There are lots of ways I define myself, but none of them involve pigment. Are you telling me that by NOT defining myself in racial terms, I am either being a racist or perpetuating racism? That would be a stunningly Orwellian example of twisting words...

[some-stars.livejournal.com]

Kate--this is why I find this thread a rather dubious idea. People who actually have *questions* and genuinely want to learn the answers can *find* the answers themselves, quite easily. And people who just want to pride themselves on how colorblind they are aren't exactly hiding out at the moment.

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

*sigh*

Implied insults are quite passé - if you disagree with something I wrote, I would appreciate learning the reason. However, I accept no assertions without substantiation, and I do not begin with the premise that any given opinion should not be questioned.

Personally, I think the exercise of racial *anything* is pretty dubious: being overly concerned with racial identities is a characteristic which was found mostly in really unpleasant societies rather than in the healthy ones.

[some-stars.livejournal.com]

As the whole point was that I was using you as an example of someone *not interested in genuine dialogue,* I thought it would be rather futile to try and engage in a dialogue with you. I continue in this opinion.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you telling me that by NOT defining myself in racial terms, I am either being a racist or perpetuating racism?

That was not your original question. You didn't ask whether people should *define themselves* by their race, nor did you ask a question about how you should think of yourself.

Your original question was why you should "give a hoot," at all, about anyone *else's* skin color.

The answer is, because skin color is a real, measurable factor that has been proven, over and over, to affect the way people are treated in our society-- in schools, in the workplace, in hospitals, in courts, in history books, on the news, in popular culture-- race is a biological construct, yeah, but it's a construct that is *real* in terms of its effects on *all of us*-- our day-to-day lives and our overall experiences in modern society, in ways that are both profound and subtle. If you don't notice or care about race, then yes, you are (passively) supporting and perpetuating these unfair systems.

When you say "why should I care about race" what you're really saying is "why should I care about the ways that the modern concept of race affects people's lives? After all, it doesn't affect me."

The answer is, because it's the very least that a decent person can do.

[antikythera.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one who thinks thegameiam was asking a rhetorical question about why people are racist in the first place, as opposed to why anyone should care about racial issues?

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

I accept the idea that there are people who treat others differently based on real differences in skin tone. There are also people who treat others differently based on "racial identities" which are sort-of-vaguely derived from differences in skin tone.

I would say that both groups I mention above are doing something wrong (with the exception of the makup salespeople &c), and I assert that the right way to reduce the incidence of the above is to reduce the degree to which we make identity dependent on either perceived or real skin tone.

(As an example of the difference between perceived and real skin tones, I have only met one truly "white" person - he was an albino, and even he was a little bit on the pinkish side. I have never met a person with truly "black" skin - I've seen a variety of shades of brown skin, from the "unstirred chocolate milk" to "just a little cream in the coffee.")

To pick a significant nit: I don't think that it's the "modern concept of race" which affects people's lives nearly as much as it's prejudgements on the part of other people due to race which do.

The answer is, because it's the very least that a decent person can do.

Are you telling me that you'd rather I include race in my decisionmaking process? Examples of places where I don't consider it now include whom to hire or promote, whether to be concerned when seeing two people walking down the street toward me, or who should receive honors I distribute at my synagogue. Am I wrong for not using race as a factor?

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

got it in one.

In the perfect world, nobody cares about race, right? So my question is this: how do we get there? What actions on our part are the most likely to help? Focusing on race as a concept runs the risk of struggling with monsters...

[thegameiam.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit surprised (and a bit amused) that I'm being accused of being "not interested in genuine dialogue." I have actually reexamined many core beliefs - and even changed a bunch - over the past few decacdes.

Certainly, I don't have the same opinions as I did when I was 23 - and I'm definitely the better for it.

If you think your ideas are fit for the public square, then bring them out to the contest, and may the best idea win. I'm certainly open to being convinced; are you?

A useful exercise: sincerely (attempt to) place yourself in the viewpoint of someone with whom you disagree strongly on an issue. Try to figure out why they think that way, knowing that the vast majority of people don't view themselves as nefarious. At the end of the exercise you'll be in a better position to confront disagreement without fear.