In the news

[dreamer_easy]

Rape Victims Suffer Ordeal to Get Medical Tests: "Victims of sexual assault in some areas of NSW are being forced to wait hours in blazing heat and travel up to 500 kilometres without showering because there are not enough local people to carry out the medical tests later used as evidence."

MPs seek to lift ban on abortion advice: "The federal coalition may accept a move to overturn a Howard government ban on Australian aid funding advice on abortion and other aspects of family planning."

In the Name of Hijab?: "Some so-called “traditional” Muslims argue that ‘Western’ women are oppressed because they must derive their self-worth from the gaze of men. However, it is also true that within some Islamic communities a woman who does not cover is not afforded the same respect as one who does. The expectations are different but the result is the same; a woman’s worth is still determined by others, including men."

Comments

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

Did you see the CSI where Catherine thinks she may have been raped? She does a quick & dirty "rape kit" on herself with a comb and a tampon. Seems like it should be possible for police/medical staff to have something like that and be able to at least supervise a woman testing herself, if not carry out the tests.

[hiraethin.livejournal.com]

The point of medical tests is their evidentiary value in court. If done by a person lacking the existing standard of knowledge (which I believe is a doctor) or equipment, the test results can be called into question in court - thus rendering them useless. The CSI character Catherine has the advantage of being a forensic expert, and furthermore, it's a TV show. Don't get me started about the differences between CSI and reality ;)

[hiraethin.livejournal.com]

Rape Victims - a horrid situation. It is simple economics. Not enough doctors in remote rural areas. Sufficiently low population density = few or no doctors.

Self-Worth - Man is a social animal. Our society would be quite different - and I think more unpleasant - were people completely unaffected by the opinions of others. Take me, for example. I am male. What I say in a given situation, including this one, how I dress and otherwise attend to my appearance, and many other aspects of my behaviour are chosen in part based on my understanding of the opinions of other people. Wearing a tie or not wearing a tie does not make me a slave of other people, or of men specifically, or of women. But my decision to wear one is rooted primarily in how I perceive or foresee the reactions of other people to my wearing or not wearing of a tie. Frankly, I would be disadvantaged at my work, in both social and status terms, if I did not wear one. Does this mean I am oppressed?

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

No-one is going to assault you and then claim it was your own fault because you weren't wearing a tie!

[hiraethin.livejournal.com]

True. But oppression isn't limited to physical assault. And I thought we were discussing self-worth and how it is derived, rather than assault.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Assault's the far end of a spectrum of consequences for women of how they look. You're right that men are also subject to the same judgments - but to nowhere near the same extent as women. In this culture how we look is the single most important thing about us (followed by our sexual and reproductive histories). A glance through any magazine rack will show you what I mean!

[hiraethin.livejournal.com]

I concur.

After some reflection on this point, however, I cannot help but see a difference between the issue of feeling social pressure (linked to their sense of self-worth) to wear or not wear particular clothes, and the issue of people being assaulted ostensibly because they are wearing or not wearing particular clothes.

If a woman, or a man, is assaulted, and the offender claims or evidence shows that the victim's clothes were the basis for the decision to commit the assault, it's a crime (whether reported or not, whether prosecuted or not). Assault isn't about the victim's self-worth, and if a person or a group of people decide to act in a particular way or to adopt a particular standard of dress because of fears they may be assaulted, self-worth issues are not relevant. In other words, their behaviour is based on fear.

Also, I'd like to take issue with your remark that "In this culture how we look is the single most important thing about us (followed by our sexual and reproductive histories)." I believe an accurate statement on that point should be much more qualified. Some people view others primarily based on different criteria. Your remark may be accurate for some people in our culture, perhaps many, perhaps even most. But not all. Don't paint everyone with that brush.

And besides, a glance at a magazine rack generates data which is strongly inconsistent with reality. Which is why many of us react with derision when standing in a supermarket check-out aisle, and our eyes fall on the magazine rack.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

'Ere, 'ang on, which bit are you concurring with?

[hiraethin.livejournal.com]

Wups.

I was agreeing with your point that "...men are also subject to the same judgments - but to nowhere near the same extent as women."

Sorry about that.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

No no - just wanted to be sure we're not talking at cross purposes. Which we might be, a bit - let me juxtapose the original quote and your response:

Her:

"Some so-called “traditional” Muslims argue that ‘Western’ women are oppressed because they must derive their self-worth from the gaze of men. However, it is also true that within some Islamic communities a woman who does not cover is not afforded the same respect as one who does. The expectations are different but the result is the same; a woman’s worth is still determined by others, including men."

Your good self:

"Self-Worth - Man is a social animal. Our society would be quite different - and I think more unpleasant - were people completely unaffected by the opinions of others. Take me, for example. I am male. What I say in a given situation, including this one, how I dress and otherwise attend to my appearance, and many other aspects of my behaviour are chosen in part based on my understanding of the opinions of other people. Wearing a tie or not wearing a tie does not make me a slave of other people, or of men specifically, or of women. But my decision to wear one is rooted primarily in how I perceive or foresee the reactions of other people to my wearing or not wearing of a tie. Frankly, I would be disadvantaged at my work, in both social and status terms, if I did not wear one. Does this mean I am oppressed?"

Possibly where you and I are getting our wires crossed is that someone's "worth" comes from two sources: how we feel and think about themselves, and how we're treated by others. But these sources aren't separate. We internalise others' opinions about us; in turn, others change the way they treat us depending on how confident and authoritative we seem. Both factors operate in both Western and Muslim society, with women being treated differently depending on how they look (their face and figure, what they're wearing, whether they're wearing makeup, etc), and women internalising those cultural views and judging themselves on their appearance.

As we agree, men aren't exempt from this sort of pressure - it just doesn't affect men as intensely or as constantly, because men are doing the looking and the judging. (Women look at their own and each others' appearance through this "male gaze".)

It's true that I shouldn't consider the media the sole authority on cultural standards - what people do at home, at work, etc doesn't necessarily match what they're being told to do thousands of times each day. But man one can move a lot of magazines about dieting, makeup, hair, fashion, how to attract a boyfriend, etc. There are male equivalents, but to nowhere near the same extent.

It's always struck me as telling that both men's magazines and women's magazines almost always have a woman on the cover - and not just any woman, but one who closely matches the impossible standard being set for all women. No Western woman can entirely escape this constant input (even when she is in the habit of hurling abuse back at the images, hem hem). Being told that the most important thing about you is how you look, and coming to believe that, is very different to merely being sensibly sensitive to the opinions of others.