Female POV

[dreamer_easy]

Just caught a mention of a discussion about whether feminist writers should write from a female POV. I can give one reason straight up, albeit a dated one. You see, I have a guilty pleasure - reading SF short stories from the late fifties / early sixties. In these stories, the female characters are often barely recognisable as human beings. You couldn't get inside their heads, because there's nothing in there. It must have been quite a shock when the New Wave hit, bringing with it fully formed female characters with inner lives and motivations and stuff.

A more up-to-date reason may come from our TV screens. All SF shows are about a white guy and his friends (with the exception of two of the Treks). That's the SF most people consume, and I'll bet most SF readers are also watching the white guys in space. Discuss.

Comments

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

They should just make a TV show called White Guys In Space.

[stephen-dedman.livejournal.com]

I remember seeing Steve Barnes on a panel at Worldcon, talking about the arguments he'd had with publishers about the covers of his books: they said that if the hero was depicted as black on the cover, he'd sell far fewer copies. He said he thought about this for a moment, and decided that he didn't want to take money from anyone who wouldn't buy a book knowing the hero was black. This was greeted with thunderous applause from the audience.

[tysolna]

Oh yeah.

Is that the old "target audience" myth the TV producers still adhere to?

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

It's the demographic. I am told.

[pbristow.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear. Bring back Dark Angel! And for extra realism cred, team her up with the Two Fat Ladies (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0169499/). (Even if one of them is dead. That's what regeneration's for. What, you seriously think the Two Fat Ladies *aren't* Time Ladies?).

[abates.livejournal.com]

*wracks brain* Stargate: Atlantis? Wow, there really haven't been many. Not recently, at any rate.

[not-croaker.livejournal.com]

Mmmm, I don't think even Atlantis qualifies. Yes, Weir is in charge of the thing, but Sheppard is really the "hero" of the piece, the protagonist.

The new Galactica comes a bit closer, with roughly equal emphasis between the Adamas, Starbuck, and President Roslyn.

I'm a little prejudiced myself because I tend to watch a lot more Japanese sci-fi/fantasy than American... possibly because there's just more of it, and of better quality in general. They also aren't afraid to have dramatic and strong female characters and even leads, and to make stories that allow the lead to be feminine and find romance and love while still remaining the strong protagonist.

[gdwessel.livejournal.com]

SF being White Guys In Space is nothing new, who remembers Richard Pryor's "ain't no brothers in Star Wars" comment?

Of course, you get more than one strong female LEADS in a series and it's "tehy're lezbos zomg" and the various pro/con discussion there, completely ignoring any character traits that doesn't involve their sexual habits.

In short, it's an impossible situation.

[antikythera.livejournal.com]

Everything is about a white guy and his friends, not just s/f. I first noticed it in kiddie cartoons -- the leader of the team or the center of the group is always a white boy, even if he's not the main character in terms of the number of stories that focus on him. There's a conception that a show about a girl is for girls, and boys won't watch it, while girls won't mind watching a show about a boy. I think this is more prevalent in kiddie entertainment because of the toy-marketing angle.

Feminist writers, or any writers for that matter, should write from any POV they want. What sells well or what the publishers/networks/studios latch onto is another story.

Working for a megabookstore chain, I've been noticing a boom in self-published and vanity-published books lately. I wonder if the big publishers are becoming even more antsy and risk-shy when it comes to publishing things that are new and different, or that aren't guaranteed sellers. I'll bet if you took a sample, you'd find a lower ratio of protagonists who are white and/or male, just because the authors have a little more freedom to write what they want instead of what their publisher wants.

[not-croaker.livejournal.com]

Some excellent work to check out, then, in the way of Romantic Space Opera -- Steve Miller & Sharon Lee's 'Liaden' universe. You will not be disappointed.

[taraljc.livejournal.com]

Actually, speaking of cartoons, once of the things I always liked about Gargoyles was that it was really Elisa's story in that she's the character whose POV the audience comes into the story with--a half black half native american cop who while still being the love interest was first and formost a GOOD COP and a good person, and Goliath was played by Keith David (who is very NOT white). The only white guys on the series for most of the first series were the bad guys (Xanatos and his majordomo Owen, and even they had layers--especially once we found out Owen was the Puck).

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Everything is about a white guy and his friends, not just s/f.

Yup. It's the male gaze, plus the desirable demographic.

[taraljc.livejournal.com]

I remember when the Popper books first hit big here, there was one analysis regarding their popularity with box sexes that made sense to me. And that was what while female readers can still identify with a male protagonist, boys found it harder to identify with a female protagonist. So the only way to get BOTH sexes interested was to keep the action centred around a boy.

Which once again proves that girls are simply cooler than boyz. And that boyz are weird.

[stephanielake.livejournal.com]

has anyone ever done stuff on this white guys in space?

off topic - i just read that in the USA and the UK there have been stabbings and shootings between people over prom/formal dresses :( its so silly and sad

[taraljc.livejournal.com]

Potter books, even.

I swear, I ought not to be allowed near a keyboard, pre-tea.

[alryssa.livejournal.com]

Edward James Olmos is Hispanic, not white, for the record (if we're going to split hairs). But most of BSG's regular cast is indeed white. Even the DW novels fell far short of crossing the racial divide, IMO.

Xena comes more under the "fantasy" umbrella for me than SF.

[phlegethon-vii.livejournal.com]

Xena is definately fantasy, yes.

And Xena's at least bi...even Lucy Lawless admits Xena and Gabby were getting horizontal by Season 6 :D

[tysolna]

That's the SF most people consume, and I'll bet most SF readers are also watching the white guys in space.

Speaking as a female SF lover: I watch what is there. If there is nothing else but "white guys in space", well, at least there's the "in space" bit to keep SF lovers happy.

At least there are more strong female characters around these days, such as Aeryn from Farscape (and the grey chick, and the blue chick, and the red chick, and Sputnik), or Rose from Doctor Who, and they do more than scream, faint and play Damsel in Distress. Small steps, but steps forward.

[purplepooka.livejournal.com]

Does Buffy count? I know it's technically fantasy/horror, but there are a lot of SF concepts in there (like the demons coming from other dimensions, and the magic working with technology).
I'm also (in my Whedon-worshipping madness) wondering if Firefly counts as "a white guy and his friends". Is Mal the main character? Or is he just the captain? For me it's very much an ensemble - the crew are all central protagonists.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Actually, Buffy is a good point (and so, arguably, is Xena.)

All SF shows are about a white guy and his friends...

[issi-noho.livejournal.com]

... unless, of course, one looks at children's television. Even then one has to work quite hard (someone else may do better).

The Changes and Luna: in both shows the main protagonist is a teenage girl (although I suppose the former might more properly be called supernatural drama). Dark Season may also fall into this category (two girls & a boy), but I haven't seen it, so I can't say which, if any, character dominates.

Sapphire & Steel: well, it's an equal partnership, innit?

My Parents Are Aliens: (currently) about kids from a variety of ethnic backgrounds and their foster parents. Who are aliens.

Metal Mickey: about a robot of indeterminate ethnicity and his adoptive family.

And last, but most certainly not least, The Clangers: about a bunch of pink aliens things on a distant planet, and their mates. Who happen to include an iron chicken and a soupdragon.

Re: All SF shows are about a white guy and his friends...

[hnpcc]

Children of the Dog Star is another one - very strong lead character who liked science, was fascinated by space and good with mechanical things. Oh and was a girl. I totally wanted to be her for years, and not just so I could meet aliens.

[amy-chesis.livejournal.com]

Apropos of nothing, why does your icon feature someone reading a book with a caricature of Booth circa 1994 on the cover?

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

That's nothing, check out who's playing Equinox in the Protoverse movie:

[jblum.livejournal.com]

...I can't believe no one's mentioned "The X-Files" yet. Mulder was the one with the Quest, but Scully was arguably the viewpoint character, not least because Mulder started out as a a dyed-in-the-wool freak. I think Scully got sidelined when the show got Mulder-mythology-centered, but it's still about as close to an equal male-female partnership show as TV SF got.

Hmm -- does the Doctor's status as the guy who can move mountains keep Doctor Who in the White Guy basket, or does the new show actually succeed in being the story of a white girl who runs off to outer space?

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Interesting points both!

[stephanielake.livejournal.com]

:( yep it is awfull

the non-violent competition can get extreme too - i know some people who spent 6-700 bucks on their outfit and accessories and that is way too much

[richardjgrayson.livejournal.com]

Problem with that, is that I've seen plenty of female writers try to write female characters and -fail miserably-.

[kateorman.livejournal.com]

Not female writers - feminist writers. Who should work hard to get across a convincing female POV, even at the risk of failure.